Go and check out Biblical Women Who Didn’t Submit: Abigail by Shawna R. B. Atteberry. It shines a bit of much needed light upon Kathryn Joyce’s new book Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement. Here is an excerpt:
Conservative and fundamentalist Christians of the extreme kind are getting some press right now … Members of the Quiverfull movement are biblical literalists who believe families should have as many children as God gives to them. (The name quiverfull comes from Psalm 127:3-5: “Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them.”) They do not use artificial birth control, and have families as large as 20. They homeschool their children. There are strict gender roles: men work and the public square is their place. Women are to be homemakers and mothers. Their sphere is to be in the home. And of course, wives are to be totally submissive to their husbands. The husbands are the high priests and heads of their homes. Their wives must always defer to them.
This is a very good read. It does not answer the million dollar question (i.e., how can otherwise intelligent people actually think this way circa 2009), and I’m not sure that there is a good answer for that question. It does, however, point people towards an alternative expression for patriarchy that is founded upon equality, fairness, compassion, understanding, teamwork and reality (some women are better spiritual leaders in the home and church than some men!).
Related posts:
I heard a piece on the radio about the book and movement. The thing that bothered me the most about the movement is that many of the members apparently are unabashed about the fact that the goal is to use their abundant progeny to spread their particular brand of fundamentalist Christianity. In other words, they openly admit that they produce children for the express purpose of using them as pawns. I find that abhorrent. Not to mention, of highly dubious effectiveness.
I love in Velvet Elvis when Rob Bell bashes how far we’ve taken “wives submit to your husbands”. He asks why we neglect all the other verses around that. What happens when that husband is not doing anything to lead the family in the right direction? What do we do with these phenomenal women of our day who, as you said, are the best leaders in the church? We make them leaders! Sounds like a good read Shawn.
While I absolutely agree with Biblical gender roles and strive to practice them in my own home to the best of my ability, I’ve never run across a scripture that would tell me to do the dreadful things that are often being touted in opposition to this (e.g. having children for pawns, forcing your wife to sin, talking down to her, etc.).
The acts of the Quiverfull movement bother me when they are taken out of scriptural context and stray from the Biblical nature. I believe scripture should be interpreted with other scripture and there are more than a few things I think need a second look there.
As for people having as many children as they want I could care less. If they conduct themselves Biblically and they run their household according to the Word of God then it would only lead to bearing good fruit. Good for them.
I don’t think it’s helpful to loosely talk about the verse “wives submit to your husbands”. You also need to define the word “leaders” here as well. This subject is so vast and deep and can only be recognized in it’s right way by scripture alone. Any one piece outside of the others is sure to be a problem.
Women absolutely have a place in the church and it would be ignorant to the very Word of God to believe otherwise.
Justin – I’ll do some defining, if you do some defining too. First, what do you mean when you say “Biblical Gender Roles?”
Secondly, how do you “strive to practice them (i.e., Biblical gender roles)?”
Third, what exactly do you mean when you say, “I don’t think it’s helpful to loosely talk about the verse ‘wives submit to your husbands.’” How is it loose? What would not loose look like?
Fourth, by “leaders,” I mean “leaders.” Simple enough, right? I’m talking about pastoral leadership.
Finally, you said, “Women absolutely have a place in the church and it would be ignorant to the very Word of God to believe otherwise.” What exactly would you say this place is, and by what authority do you say it, and who exactly gets to enforce it, if anybody?
1. There’s a chapter in Kostenberger’s book, God, Marriage & Family, entitled Family In the New Testament that describes exactly what I mean when I say “Biblical gender roles”. You can read that chapter here: http://books.google.com/books?id=2nNr3T38tw0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=god+marriage+family#PPA109,M1
In addition to this book I would point towards the wealth of resources from Dr. John Piper here: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/49_Biblical_Manhood_and_Womanhood/
I believe this book and these resources have collected all the scripture that would answer any of Rob Bell’s questions (and any of ours) on the subject of Biblical gender roles from a Biblical point of view. And they are the ones I have in mind when I talk about this subject.
2. I strive to practice the scripture pointed at in the above chapter and resources. What that looks like would need to be explored on a per-situation basis. We all strive to be Christians. I’m not sure how else to say that.
3. By loose I mean that I find taking one verse alone out of the Bible and talking about it to be problematic. I believe scripture should be interpreted with other scripture so we would need to jump into a fully well-rounded discussion regarding Biblical gender roles for that verse to be served well. Taken out of context this verse (and all others) can be abused through and through.
4. When questioning what role a woman plays in the church I believe we need to go back to the Bible, to the scriptures and see what they say.
For men there’s a chapter in God, Marriage & Family called Faithful Husbands: Qualifications for Church Leadership. You can read what it says here (due to book preview some is cut out): http://books.google.com/books?id=2nNr3T38tw0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=god+marriage+family#PPA260,M1
For women a scriptural account is given in this sermon by Dr. John Piper: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/49_Biblical_Manhood_and_Womanhood/2630_Should_women_become_pastors/
And in this short (and to the point) one by John MacArthur: http://www.gty.org/media/audio/womenpastors.mp3
And from some more articles by Kostenberger: http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=women+kostenberger&B1=Go
I believe that the Bible is the authority by which we live our lives – that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant authority for Christian faith. That is the only authority by which I would say anything concerning Biblical gender roles or anybody’s place in the church.
Justin – Thanks for the links, but I was looking for an answer from you about what you mean when you use the words and phrases you do. Can you tell me what you believe Biblical Gender roles are and how you try to practice them in your life and home? I’m not really interested in chasing your links around the Internet to try and find out what you are actually trying to say here on my blog in your comments. So, if you can’t simply say what you mean, and say it boldly, in your own words, then I’ll be content to move on.
I will say this, about so-called “Biblical Gender roles,” you are on very shaky ground, and a million proof-texts and all the name dropping in the world won’t make it a stronger foundation.
Those texts and the scriptures they point to is what I mean and what I believe. And because I’ve referenced texts shouldn’t mean that my point of view is damaged or lesser in any way.
It’s not that I can’t simply say what I mean, it’s that I believe the issue of gender roles should be discussed holistically and not loosely (one of my original points). It’s the entirety of the matter that is an amazing reflection of the gospel.
And to rephrase what has already been laid down sufficiently in these texts and resources would be quite lengthy. Whether I do it or Dr. Piper does it doesn’t matter because either way you will need to read a lot.
You’re free to ask me whatever you’d like for specific exploration but even a small phrase like “wives submit to your husbands” deserves a good amount of scriptural reference to be explained completely.
The Bible is the foundation of my point of view on gender roles. And I believe ignoring a scriptural view of them puts us on shaky ground. That’s all I really wanted to add to the discussion in the first place.
OK. You and I have been having a wonderful e-mail conversation in addition to these comments here. I’ll simply reiterate what Ive been trying to communicate to you in those emails: What are your beliefs regarding biblical gender roles? I know what Driscoll, MacArthur, ect., believe, but what do you believe and why? Even if it is the same thing as those guys believe, why not just say it, so we can have a real conversation? Pointing me towards links to what other people said isn;t really a good foundation for a real conversation.
What do you believe about gender roles, Justin?
You have stated the Bible is your foundation, and I would say the same thing, but I think we are talking about two vastly different approaches to the bible. Let’s hash that out too. maybe we can start there?
Thoughts?
I understand your point; however, the motive in utilizing the aforementioned resources was only to help everyone understand the entirety of my point of view.
Before we jump into what Biblical gender roles look like on the ground level (if we even get there) I believe it’s important to start with why they exist.
Biblical gender roles exist to replicate (in metaphor) the great expression of Christ’s love for his church. And in practicing them we proclaim something powerful with our marriages in worship to God. In other words our marriages are a reflection of Jesus’ marriage (love, by choice) to the church and the church’s submission to him. When we practice these Biblical gender roles it bears witness to this.
This very basic idea of marriage is clearly and amazingly illustrated in Ephesians 22-33 (ESV):
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. [1] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
This statement and what it shows us is nothing short of absolutely beautiful (in my opinion as with all of this). With this basic understanding of what Biblical marriage is we can move to any array of subjects within this Biblical view and how they relate and why. This is the context in which I will say all other things about the matter.
But there is the possibility that some will want to talk about this overall idea of Biblical marriage first. And I assume this is where we will see the most difference.
Ah! Now you are saying something! Now we can get somewhere. Thanks, Justin.
I will say in response, a few things, before we get going:
1. The Bible is my context.
As a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, I have no greater foundation than the Bible. It is the context from which the great narrative of God is revealed and proclaimed. It is from the Bible that the great re-creative process of the world is launched by God, through Jesus of Nazareth, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. that’s where I’m starting, right there.
Honest exegesis is a journey that does not begin with presupposed answers that are read into the texts and then called exegesis. Exegesis begins with the text and ends with the answers provided by the text itself. We must put presuppositions aside and let the text speak for themselves, in their and from their original contexts and historical settings.
This also means that we should allow scripture to interpret scripture, even if it results in conundrum, or worse yet, contradiction. Too, believe it or not, I think we should interpret scripture literally unless their is valid reason not too (metaphor!), and I also believe that the intended meaning of the author(s) is within grasp and should be the final say for the text.
Finally, there is application. This is the important part, as you know. Application can’t be accomplished by ignoring any of the steps above. In other words, we can’t skip or ignore any of the above steps or anything the above steps reveal and head straight towards application. We can only apply what we are sure of, right?
All of that to say this: I take the Bible as seriously as anyone! I may even take it more seriously than most who claim to be serious about it! We will unpack this in depth as we move forward in this conversation.
2. Biblical Gender Roles and The Ephesian Household Codes
You wrote, “Biblical gender roles exist to replicate (in metaphor) the great expression of Christ’s love for his church. And in practicing them we proclaim something powerful with our marriages in worship to God. In other words our marriages are a reflection of Jesus’ marriage (love, by choice) to the church and the church’s submission to him. When we practice these Biblical gender roles it bears witness to this.”
OK. We both know this is where you and I part ways. We’ll get to the specifics of that parting soon, but it would be helpful to the process for you to actually say more about your above statement. It sure sounds good, because you aren’t really explaining the practical ramifications of your expression. You are simply saying, “This is what I believe,” but you are not saying what that actually looks like lived out in your life and home. So, while it sounds great on paper, what does it look like in real-time? What role do you play? Your wife? Your children? How does it work, Justin? Why or how does a wife submitting to you and me reflect the salvific nature of the relationship shared between Christ and Church? What does this “submission” actually look like?
While you are answering those questions, I’ll simply say this as regards the Ephesian Household Codes: We must read Ephesians chapter 5 in context with the entire letter (Ephesians) and within context of the compiled scriptures. We can’t just pluck out 22-32 and think we understand the text, the author, and the historical and cultural setting within which the letter was written and Paul ministered. I’ll say this for the time being: I think your understanding of the Ephesian Household Codes is very limited and actually produces a reading and interpretation that Paul was actually working hard to subvert. We’ll get there, I’m sure. For now, I simply ask that you actually articulate what your interpretive expression of this particular household code looks like in real-time and how that honestly reflects the relationship between Jesus and Church, for real.
You explained why you think gender roles exist. Now tell me what actually does exist. Then we’ll get into the meat…
Thanks, Justin. I’m looking forward to what will be a great and lively conversation.
Let’s get at it!
You talked a lot about how we should interpret the Bible. I agree about letting the scriptures speak for themselves and being interpreted on the backs of other scripture, but absolutely not in the case that it would ever lead to contradiction.
The Bible is sacred, infallible, inerrant and spirit-breathed. It cannot contradict itself. If we find contradiction with the Bible it is only in our interpretation of the scripture but not by scripture itself. I believe in sola scriptura, that the Bible is the divine authority by which I live my life and all other authorities are beneath it. I don’t doubt that you believe you take the Bible seriously (maybe even more than others like you say) but do you believe that all of this is true?
Our view of scripture is directly connected to how we interpret even the short excerpt I cited in Ephesians 5 and ultimately how we will view all practical application concerning this subject matter in the New Testament.
Since I believe in sola scripture let it act as evidence that I would never take Ephesians 5 alone to act on. Left to our sinful nature we could assume all sorts of wild things if we stop only with “wives, submit to your husbands”. The New Testament gives us everything we need to act this out in love, as it should, according to the will of God.
In order for us to have a holistic Biblical view in exercising gender roles we need to put our faith in exactly what Ephesians 5 states so clearly, that our marriages are a reflection of Jesus’ love to his church and his church’s submission to him. Our marriages are for worship to God. And if our marriages are conducted in any matter outside of the context of Ephesians 5, outside of faith in the mystery that is, then our marriages are wasted on good intention.
If one cannot see the way in which marriage is a reflection between Jesus and his church after reading the entirety of Ephesians I’m not sure they will ever truly understand any application as a result even if it looks great.
To be blunt, if one does not hold this view of marriage, I believe that though their application looks good to the culture around them that it is actually idolatry, a worship of each other instead of God.
Let’s start with husbands as the head and the submission of a wife.
I too agree that we must read Ephesians 5 within the context of the entire letter. And I believe the context is all things under the headship of Christ (Ephesians 1:10). But I do not believe I have a limited view of the Ephesian household code. In mentioning that I believe you are foreshadowing your view of mutual submission which I will allow you to illustrate for everyone on your own.
A husband is the head of the household and his wife is to submit to him. This is but one stroke in a great Biblical painting of marriage. Remember, marriage is a reflection of Christ’s love for his church and their submission to him. Anyone trying to debate these simple but profound truths has little hope as Peter even points women back to Sarah (1 Peter 3:1-7) – talk about driving a point home.
As for what this looks like in my own home, or more like what my wife and I strive for, I like what Kostenberger says in a chapter about marriage in the New Testament in his book God, Marriage and Family:
“… a more accurate way of looking at marital roles is to understand that wives are called to follow their husband’s loving leadership in their marriage. This leadership and submission is to take place in the context of a true partnership, in which the husband genuinely values his wife’s companionship and counsel and the wife sincerely values her husband’s leadership.”
I’ve always thought those words to be such a sweet commentary on the great scripture that they were inspired by and written from.
In the case that this is not practical enough I invite you to ask me any question you’d like. Maybe you want to know what happens when I ask my wife to bring me a beer or where that falls under submission. Ask away but please be respectful. In other words, ask me questions that you yourself are prepared to answer as well.
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